AsSalamu Alaikum and welcome once again to focus. Today’s program will be our 42nd series Jesus, the beloved messenger of Allah is our knife and Trinity, atonement and bus sacrifice topics they will be on crucifixion. I’m your host Seidman mission here once again from St. Mary’s University is dr. john
monocles.
How about a short summary please of last week’s program? Sure. Last week, we continued discussion or analysis of the concept of atonement as presented by Paul, we indicated that there is a problem with timing Why did atonement take place 2000 years ago, not before or after.
We also discuss the fate of those who died before Jesus was born. And the theological difficulties faced in answering that question by Christian theologians and how Finally, many of them concluded that believing in the blood Atonement of Jesus may not necessarily be the sole and only universal way of salvation for all.
He also indicated that there is no reason to defend Paul’s theory of atonement, because God could have forgiven and could forgive mankind anytime,
died directly without having to go through any roundabout ways of doing it.
We also confirmed that by referring to some Christian scholars who themselves admitted that blood sacrifice was not an absolute necessity for God’s forgiveness and showing of His love and mercy.
And we indicated that from the practical standpoint, the blood sacrifice of Jesus peace be upon him did not really remove the effect of original sin in view of Genesis chapter three, verses 16 through 19. Because the word is still going as a test,
that even if we look at it as giving power to overcome sin, you will notice that there are those who believed in the concept of autonomy, even folks but committed sin.
And there are those who did not believe in the atonement, and also they repented and had very good and major change in their lives, which means that believing in that theory of giving power is independent training of what actually happens with people who believed or not believed in, or did not believe in the in this particular doctrine. But all of that, again, was on the assumption that Jesus was in being crucified. And that it says even is subject to more careful examination question.
Thank you. Now let’s start with a new topic. And maybe we’ll begin by
asking you about the suggestion that all those who believe in Jesus unanimously accept the crucifixion.
Well, to start with, I’d like to make
a slight
correction. And that assumption, which means, as you said, it’s quite common, that all those who believed in Jesus unanimously believed in his crucifixion, because there are
there’s at least 1 billion human beings 1000 million human beings that believe in Jesus, love him, respect him, but not as God or divine Son of God. And exactly and do not believe in that he was crucified. These are the Muslims. And their authority comes from what they believe to be the Word of God the Quran in Surah Nisa, that’s number four, in verses 157 and 158. It says it clearly that while there was already a conspiracy to kill Jesus or to crucify him, it says they killed him not. Nor did they crucify him, but it appears to them as such, or it was made to appear to them. And then later on, it says, God raised him unto himself.
Now,
the This might sound right, just Alright, that’s only the Muslim position that Jesus was not the one who was put on the cross. But as we indicated in some earlier programs in this series, in the early Christian
Unity, there were several sects, not one, at least seven sects who believed that Jesus was not crucified. And they believed in the so called substitutionary theory that someone else in his place actually is the one who died on the cross. And this includes just to name a few, the Corinthians, the early facilities, the destinations, the car pockets, the natural rights, and others. Furthermore, when the gospel according to Barnabas was a contemporary of Jesus, an eyewitness was discovered in Austria,
several hundreds of years ago.
It also indicates that Jesus was not crucified, that the angel carried him away. And that God changed the face of Judah, that stereotype betrayed him. And he looked like Jesus and he was arrested and actually crucified with the understanding that he was Jesus by way of punishment for his betrayal, but it was not Jesus.
In a previous program early in the series also indicated that a more recent discovery, the scrolls of Niger Hammadi in Egypt,
which was published, or made available in English for the first time in 1977, shows also quite clearly that Jesus was not crucified and actually, he was watching the, the crucifixion.
Now,
so the idea here is that it is not just a Muslim physician, that the idea of unanimity even among Christians, if we take early Christian sects, even though some of them classify them as heretics, but you know, of course, we discussed that earlier history, what was the criteria of being heretical or orthodox.
The interesting part in all of that, that all of these stories are these groups, whether they are the urban Muslims on one hand, or the the early Christian sects, they believe in some kind of substitution or
according to the Quran, it says it was made to appear to them. So something happened, somebody was putting on the cross kill on the cross, but it was not Jesus. And, in fact, you can examine that issue, either from the standpoint of what is the degree of consistency of the story about the crucifixion, as it is found in the four Gospels. Or you can examine it also from the standpoint of whether the crucifixion was in fulfillment of of Testament prophecies. On the second issue, I found an interesting study by Ahmed Abdul Wahab in his book, which again, is not an English so I just give the translation says Christ in the sources and Christian sources was published in Cairo in 1978.
And the book in turn actually is based on Christian theologian he gave a list of all of the Christian theological works, which he used to that, including people with such refute among biblical scholars such as Dennis 900 cent on grant that and Aidan carnac.
approach, which is particularly interesting.
With respect to the question of crucifixion and prophecies about it, if any, is the one that deals with the analysis of the Psalms of David.
Yes, I’m glad you brought that up. Could you push through the basic premises, in analyzing the prophecies in songs, what the basic premise is, which I suppose apply to the analysis of any religious book, or particularly Old Testament or any books that might carry any prophecy is that
many in many cases, you cannot really interpret those prophecies literally word for word. The Bible contains lots of Proverbs, and allegories. And you have to take the general meaning Unless, of course, there is reason to believe that it has to be taken literally. So it’s not always just the literal name. There’s allegories many times.
Secondly, in the case of the Psalms of David in particular,
we find that there is repeated prayers and supplication of a righteous servant of God was praying earnestly to God to save him from his enemies
and saving him from death. Of course, it doesn’t mean natural death, it means premature violent death because everybody would have to face natural death anyway, so you don’t have to be saved from that.
The other aspect about the approach also is that he says that
many times, biblical some biblical scholar
Others are evangelist, make reference to the sons of David as an evidence to show that the crucifixion of Jesus and His child were already
prophesied long time ago. And he says, Well, if this is the case, then those references, those songs must be consistent. And given that picture that it will Jesus actually who was crucified. And it says on the contrary, if you examine some of those frequently referred to Psalms, you will find in fact that if you take it as a whole, it shows that Jesus will be saved from the cross and the most critical moments, in some of the events, some of those sounds even, it may indicate that someone else even will be crucified in his place.
A few of these prophecies in particular, those that claim to refer to the crucifixion of Jesus, maybe just start off as an example. Okay, I’ll try again, to be as fair as I can. I’m not just giving counter evidence, I’ll try to be fair also by presenting the evidence normally presented in this respect. Maybe not necessarily everything, but I’ll try my best. But it has been noted that many evangelists and biblical scholars keep repeating, or referring to the Psalms of David, Psalm number 22. And this is not new, because other gospel writers also made reference to that particular son, at least 22, as it appears in our prison, presently available copies of the Bible, we find that
mark, for example,
the writer of the gospel, refer to it in chapter 16. Matthew, chapter six and 27. Luke, chapter 23. JOHN, Chapter 14, whoever wrote the book of Hebrews, possibly Paul in chapter two, and in chapter five.
Now, let me give one of the basic evidences that they present as predicting exactly what happened.
In the very first verse of that Psalm 22.
It says, God, God, why have you forsaken me? I’m sure for many of our friends, among the viewers, the first thing that clicks to mind is the words attributed to Jesus on the cross, exactly the same word, God, God, why have you forsaken me? That has been quoted in Matthew chapter 27, and marked in chapter 15.
Now, another, are additional points, even that I noted that may be presented as an argument for the prophecy about crucifixion, is that in verses six to eight, of the psalm 22,
it speaks about someone who was scorned, mocked at by others. And he’s told that you know, he is committed to God, let God save him. And again, many will immediately connect that with the gospel, according to Matthew chapter 27, that Jesus was called and despised, you know, at the time when he was taken to be crucified.
We notice also
that
the psalm speaks about a person who his enemies are going to divide his garment and cast lots on his remnants. And some would say, Listen, this is exactly what Matthew said in chapter 27, especially verses verse 35.
In verse 14,
that person complains that his bones are out of joint, and that it could be counted. And they say, well, this definitely applies to the crucifixion because the body is hung so he can really count your ribs.
And more interestingly, even in verse 16, that person is crying and he says that they pierced my hands and my feet, which they say that’s an obvious reference to crucifixion. While it might sound quite interesting, and might sound very clear analogy between the wording of that Psalm and the story of crucifixion as described in the gospels, it is certainly out of context.
Not according to Muslims, but according to such respected biblical scholars like Dennis nine Harmon, others, why?
That some actually does not describe something that will happen in the future. But it actually describes something that already has happened in the past.
And it has been referred to in the Old Testament, especially in the First Samuel, chapter 27 and chapter 13. Also, first Chronicles chapter 12 to be
very brief. It describes the trial of David, and his conflict with so
the first king of Israel.
And in the beginning when he says, God, God, why have you forsaken me Actually, he’s really
crying in a period of very grave difficulty and dangers that threatens him. That is why he describes his situation and say that the bones of Bashar has surrounded me to express his extreme
distress. And the enemies surrounding him. Definitely, he describes that his bones are out of joints. Of course, when you’re afraid when you’re really in a stressful situation, you can express that your bones are out of joints. He also describes In addition, that his strength has already dried.
And according to historians, this is one. This happened when the Amalekites invaded the city of ziklag. They burned the whole city, they took the women and girls
as captives, including the two wives, two of the David’s wives.
At that time, the people of ziklag were very angry and very sad. And all of them, including David, of course, were crying, and things according to the Bible, they could not cry anymore. And some people were so mad, even against David himself. They thought that David brought of this misfortune to them, they thought that they should stone.
It is under this circumstances that David was distressed and crying and seeking the help of God, those who wish to check that, for example, in a very brief way, we can refer to the first book of Samuel in chapter 30, verses one to six, where there’s a very prolific description of the kind of distress
through which David was going now with this kind of background, with this kind of historical events, then David, when he says, God, guy, why, God, why have you forsaken me I am scorned and despise because people wanted to quit to destroy him. When he says that they cast lots.
Well, it was not a Monday night, according to the book of Numbers in chapter 26, especially verse 56, that this is what they did. That’s when they take the word Buchi, they cast lots on it. The description of garment might be also an allegory of women. Because if you go back to the book of Genesis in chapter two, verse 23, the woman or the wife is described as the flesh of my flesh, almost like a garment. So the cast the cast lots on the wives of David and the position of other people of the city of ziklag. In brief, then the sum has nothing to do the future. It simply describes an actual historical event which has already taken place in the life of David according to
read the books of the old testament itself. I think there’s a very complete
very good assets. But but the term pierced my hands and feet seem to refer to crucifixion. And David was not crucified. Now are we miss interpreting them is understanding the the expression here? I don’t think so. Because you see, when you use the term or expression, they pierced my hands and feet, which is an expression of great pain, it needs not necessarily be lectured as indicated earlier. As you mentioned before, it is not the first time that the Bible used some of these allegories. This is simply an allegory to express pain.
For example, in page 231, gives an example. That’s where from the Bible in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 28, verse 13, we find that God purportedly is threatening, very stylized, that if they continue to disobey Him,
that the heavens above them would be brass, and the earth underneath them would become iron. One.
At no time was the sky turns into brass, or the Earth turns into iron not according to the Bible, even even though the Israelites continued to disobey God. So again, it does not necessarily be literal in that sense. But even if we take piercing hands and feet
in the literal sense that the pierced my hands and my my feet,
it applies again to the extreme suffering of Prophet David because of the invasion of
Amalekites, what pacing, nor could you expect, you know, when the women and the children are taking a cactus by the invading army. But what is more important than all of that is the term pierced. And it is interesting to notice that in the audition and Hebrew version,
the word pierced does not exist, that does not exist. In fact, instead of that, it says like a lion, but it doesn’t say, pierced. Any viewers who has an access to the Revised Standard Version of the Bible may verify that the check sums of David number 22, verse 16, and you notice that there is under paste in front of pierced, there is a footnote number in life like mother, which explained that and say that this is not the term or the wording, and the original Hebrew.
Now, this kind of understanding your explanation is not an expansion of someone who is outside of Christianity.
The famous Christian theologian Dennis nine hand in his books, and Mark
also agrees with that. And he says that this psalm 22, is simply an earnest prayer of a righteous servant of God, who is really suffering, but who is meanwhile
confident of the love of God, that God will protect him and save him. I believe that’s what nine hand as a biblical scholar say, next, a great deal of sense for two reasons. One,
if you take the same song as a whole, and check verse number 24, it shows clearly that God listened and responded favorably to the prayer of that person, it reads, he has not hit that God has not hit face from him, but has heard when he cried to him, of course, God hearing doesn’t just hear him and ignoring means hurt in the sense of responded by saving him at the moment of distress. The second reason if you look into verse 26,
it also emphasizes that the afflicted will eat and be satisfied. And it speaks also about praising the Lord as a result of that, that could hardly apply to someone who died on the cross. See.
So what we’re seeing basically that, that some, obviously, even though there might be some interesting similarity in wording, but the context is quite different, doesn’t affairs in any way to some future event, less so the crucifixion of Jesus? Because that salvation that verses 24 and six speak about actually spent include contrast and opposition to what Paul said in his right in his letter to the Romans, chapter eight, verse 32. When he said, He that Jesus, or sorry, he that God did not spirit his own son, but gave him up for us all. But the son doesn’t say that says the Dern would be saved, God will deliver him.
Is there any other song, which is presented as a prophecy of the crucifixion? One there are several.
But the problem again, with some evangelists in particular, like Josh McDowell and others, they go through the sun, and just find any words, any expression that resembles in any way even remotes the story of crucifixion according to the gospel and say, Hey, you know, this is prophecy of prophecy, right? But they don’t take the totality of the Psalm and what happens to those
people who prefer to the world praying to God. Take an example, the 31st son,
verse five is quite interesting, because the person who’s praying says, into thy hand, I commit my spirits into my hand, I commit my spirit and say, Look, this is identical to what Jesus said on the cross. In the Gospel according to Luke chapter 23, verse 46, he said exactly the same thing when he was dying on the cross. I’d like to add also, again, in the spirit of trying to be fair, and give even the supporting evidence of what I don’t believe in. But just to be fair, in presenting the other view,
when I read it also, I found that you could still also argue if you are picking and choosing, that this person who was praying to God will be a scorn for his enemies and adversaries in verse 11, that those who will see him in the street will run away from him and could say, yes, this this is what happened. Jesus, you know, was alone. He was
scorned and his disciples even ran away from him they were afraid
that it says that the enemies are plotting to take his life in verse 13. And we could go on and on and civil rights, you know, there are some similarities there. Now,
if we were to take the the disarm 31
through this method of picking and choosing the parts that suits
the crucifixion, then we can also find ample evidence that that righteous servant was crying, and seeking the help of God and deliverance was indeed saved and not crucified. There are a number of reasons. And again, it’s based on the same song, one, in verses one and 17. It indicates that there that Pharaoh or that servant, who is praying to God is praying never to put him to shame, never to put him to shame. And let us remember that the greatest shame among this choice is to be hanged on a tree. According to the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 21, verse 23, reconsider anyone in that position has cursed. What could be more shame than that?
Secondly, he is praying to God to deliver him from the hands of his enemies and his persecutors. In verse 15,
he is also indicating or praying to God, to take him notice year out of DNA, which is hidden for him, verse for
the net that was hidden for him could possibly be in the case of Judah. overtrading. All right, in verse 17, also, it shows that God will put,
are they sorry that the wicked will be put to shame? could that possibly be a reference, that the shame intended originally for Jesus by crucifixion actually was put on Judah, and he was crucified in his place. But what is more important than all of that, because you can argue both ways
is that it is impossible for someone who is a sincere servant of God, let alone a person with high status and stature like Jesus peace be upon him, that you will be rejected by God. And this is precisely what the verses seven and eight of that song indicate. Let me quote it, it says, I will. That’s the that sincere servant prays and says, I will rejoice and be glad for vice steadfast love. Because there has seen my affliction that has taken heed of my adversities. See, he says that God has already taken heed of his adversities and has not delivered me into the hands of my enemies I
see from the cross. So if we take the psalm 31, as a whole, we will find that if it applies to Jesus, or if we assume that it applies to Jesus, it means that God responded to him. He did not exact saved him did not deliver him to his enemies, put the Shame on those who plotted against him, Judah, and that Judah was the one who was put on the cross, and not Jesus does. That’s very interesting, this suggestion that it was Judah, who may have possibly been crucified in the place of Jesus. Is there any other collaborating prophecies to this effect? Yes, indeed, first of all, we have mentioned already in the discussion of the nine, some of David, especially verses three, five
and six, that the righteous servant speaks about the destruction of his enemies and saving him from the gates of death. That is, in the most critical moment. We have seen that in the analysis of some number 31. We find it also in numerous others. Take one for example, some numbers 34. Again, it says, Let the afflicted be glad to
see. It talks also about God answering
the prayers of that afflicted person. In verse six, it says that God’s saved him, and that the angels in camps the person who fears God, and that’s quite interesting because in the Gospel According to Barnabas, it says that the angels took Jesus away and saved him from being put on the cross.
I noticed also that in verse 20 of Psalm 34, it says that God will protect or preserve all his bones, not in the sense that john said in chapter 19, verse 34, but to say that God saved him that not even a bone was broken. means not that their soldiers did not break his his leg but means that he will be saved.
intact. And this is only some of me. Thank you very much. We seem to have time this. This is just fascinating. Thank you all for joining us here in Assam focus. As always, your questions and comments will be most appreciated. Our phone number and our address will be appearing on your screen.
